Well I have a good read of the material on the Ngai Tahu website and I have to say that I think they have responded quite well. Everything is coded in lawyer speak and various other dark devices but that is corporate life - you can't put anything out until the lawyers have received their thousands.
The documents and panui were exactly what I expected. Somehow though I don't feel satisfied.
The problem I have is not what is said but what is not said. For instance did Wally ask if any document was prepared, was the answer no, and was a copy of the document then produced. If that did happen then I don't think that is right. Just because no final decision is made doesn't mean no decision has been made. Do you really expect me to believe that the 'Gray Document' was commissioned by Anake for a rainy day. Another nagging concern I have is that the "Collective" have obviously got concerns, I just don't believe they are maliciously trying to destroy anything. They are some of our people in important positions whose voices cannot be ignored. I don't want a sanctimonious witchhunt from the current administration, I don't want a stalinist purge.
The ''collective'' (slight deviation - man I dislike this name it is so bad, why not call yourselves something cool or meaningful - even rebels would be better) indicated in the leaked emails that they were considering legal action. Has the battle actually begun? Is the current leadership believing that they have repelled the boarders? Have the ''collective'' shot their best shots?
More than smooth documents are needed to sort this out.
19 comments:
You have a good critique on the documents posted. the question of "have the collective shot their best shots" I hope not. However they certainly have taken some hits. We are 10 years post settlement and we are successful at building another layer of sovereignty over our whanau. I dont think the collective has shot their best or I hope not as their kaupapa is what we should all be seeking.
Wise words that I agree with.
I have heard in CHCH that some believe it is all over and that they have won.
Looks like there is a clean sweep with Nuk in as the delegate for Tuahuriri. He got Wally into Rapaki. Their strategy is working.
Good spotting anon
Kia ora Marty
"the collective" has indeed been working away helping to get "their team" appointed as Reps. The question remains why and what they hope to achieve.
In the past the clear link between them all has been the ability to spend tribal $$ on each other without scrutiny. Funny how now they all claim to want accountability and transparency now when they are seeking appointment.
At Tuahiwi Nuk was banging that drum - but he did not tell the folks there how much he was paid out of sight of them all along with others when Wally was Chair of NTHC. Nuk said NTHC staff are paid too much (and some probably are) but failed to say that those pay levels were established under Wally and short of sacking all of the folks who generate the income and starting from scratch we have to live with that legacy.
If they start with full disclosure of thier own dealings first, then Reps spending now and into the future then they would have a platform to discuss who gets paid too much and where money should be spent.
My cousin was at the last TR meeting in Murihiku, there were one or two Reps from the "collective" who were actually arguing that the tribe should spend something like $15k or $20k to bring the Reps together to have a xmas party / farewell to departing Reps. They reckon this is the cost of bringing our Reps together for every meeting because of air-fares hotels etc
The ones arguing for the xmas party were a no show at the hui-a-tau for the Reps presentations on the Sunday.
My challenge to Nuk, Tahu, Wally etc is put your money where your mouth is - tell us the full story about the past money go round - if it was all above board then what is the problem with telling us all?
Kia ora anon
I'd like to see these reps living the old ways rather than these new ways. And I have real fears too, because the last thing we need is some neo-conservative faction running our iwi, wanting us to have 'shares' and breaking up our collective resource and wealth. That way will destroy us quicker than poxy blankets.
Interesting to see this post resurface after almost 9 months!
Anon 3 says this: At Tuahiwi Nuk was banging that drum - but he did not tell the folks there how much he was paid out of sight of them all along with others when Wally was Chair of NTHC. Nuk said NTHC staff are paid too much (and some probably are) but failed to say that those pay levels were established under Wally and short of sacking all of the folks who generate the income and starting from scratch we have to live with that legacy.
If you believe that the high salaries paid to people who work for NTHC date from Wally's tenure there, you have either been involved with iwi affairs for a short time or have some memory loss.
The era of lucrative contracts at NTHC commenced with the first CE of NTHC, one Brian Kennedy and continued under his successor. Few Ngāi Tahu people seem to have been amongst those being highly remunerated by either regime.
I find it highly ironic that those who want to know how much some very highly qualified Ngāi Tahu people earned as contractors to NTHC have been less curious about some other Ngāi Tahu people being contracted by the CEO.
Finally, people have a lot to say about the remuneration for Representatives at the table because they equate the meeting fee with 4 days of work every two months. As my late partner was a member of the table, I can vouch for the many, many hours of work entailed in 'constituency' matters, phone calls, reading and researching on issues being brought to the table etc. Whilst many table members have other full time employment, there have been those who see the role as requiring their full committment. I am not saying that he was right and others are not, just that the Kaiwhakahaere is not the only present or past member of the table working full time for the whānui.
Lastly, I hope that iwi members don't think that it is alright to pay the directors of NTHC, most of them not Ngāi Tahu, more than the members of the TRONT table, all of whom are members of Ngāi Tahu whānui. We should celebrate being in a position to recompense people properly, not resent them for receiving it. Of course, if people feel that individual members do not work hard enough for the whānui or don't have the requisite skills for the position, that is a different issue.
By the way, I realise that not everyone is prepared to stick their head above the barricades and sign their name to their comments but I do find the number of Anons on your blog very confusing and somewhat disappointing. It is easy to be reckless with your remarks when noone knows who you are.
Dear Evelyn,
It is ashame that some people have to be anonymous with their comments.
Did you ever consider that some don't have a choice to be anons, unless you have been on the receiving end of persicution for no reason, then you might understand.
Certain individuals abuse their positions of power and contacts to do harm to others, smear good peoples characters for their own selfish needs.
So I have to be anonymous to have a say as this is what my whanau created.
There will be a day where I will say it to their faces.
But for the interim, this is my only way.
Thanks to marty, many who cannot be heard due to circumstances out of peoples control can have a voice.
Kia ora to the last Blogger. These words are so true it has happened in my family. So that some can achieve the means to an end which is power and control of everything at the runanga. If you don't agree to everything even when you know it is incorrect or even dishonest then you are absolutely ignored and shown no respect and smear characters.
Evelyn I believe you can quite openly state your case as an individual because there are others on the same kaupapa beavering away saying nothing and leaving you to hold up this end.
Kia ora...last blogger...
I'm sorry to hear you and your whanau also have the same issues as mine.
I dare say there are alot of us whom don't feel welcome or are abused at our own marae's.
It seems to be the more honest you are, the more you get your reputations and characters slandered.
As with your rununga, ours is solely controlled by a certain group whom feed on the money and glory of being in a position.
If all rununga's were true to their mana, we would all feel welcome and able to speak our thoughts instead of being isolated or basically bullied until you get to the point where you walk.
Then they all stand as proud maori's working for unity and their so called whanau.
As soon as the camera's and media disapear we're back to empty nasty people.
I truly have empathy for your whanau.
Kia ora Anon who posted the following:
Did you ever consider that some don't have a choice to be anons, unless you have been on the receiving end of persicution for no reason, then you might understand.
Certain individuals abuse their positions of power and contacts to do harm to others, smear good peoples characters for their own selfish needs.
So I have to be anonymous to have a say as this is what my whanau created.
There will be a day where I will say it to their faces.
But for the interim, this is my only way.
I am sorry that you feel unable to speak openly because you fear repercussions from your own whanau and, possibly, others.
I have been badly treated at times because of my willingness to stand and ask awkward questions, refuse to take 'no' for an answer or take an unpopular stance in public fora. I don't do it because I am brave, rather because I have come to believe that to stay silent is to remain part of the problem, not a way forward to a solution. Even being wrong or misinformed may lead to the truth emerging as others are stimulated to respond.
Over recent years I have come to believe that bullies can often succeed in our tikanga based society because it is considered to be impolite to question the word of kaumātua, tuākana, ūpoko etc. To me it is important that we remember that the business of rūnanga and Te Rūnanga is to manage post-settlement assets and distribution to the whānui. It is our obligation to both our tīpuna and mokopuna to ensure that we ask as many questions as necessary to best inform ourselves rather than trusting others blindly.
I am not in your situation so I am not judging you as an individual but perhaps you could still post anonymously by using a nickname. In the meantime, I urge you to keep speaking out. I don't have to agree with youm nor do your whanaunga. It is your right and your responsibility.
Kia kaha
To all the anons
I get why you would want to stay that way. There is a perverse thing that happens within Ngai Tahu - we want our own to do stuff on our behalf and then we kick the living shit out of them no matter it seems how closely related to us they are.
In employment things, the jobs are all open to all Ngai Tahu Whanui, admittedly there are some key jobs that have not been advertised for a while - why, they are filled by competent non-Ngai Tahu who are only interested in working for us for the salary we pay them.
Truth is, the chances of attracting the best and bightest Ngai Tahu to be employees are pretty damn slim. As our people have stopped coming to TR meetings and PR meetings because of the small minded crap the best don't apply and the small numbers of Ngai Tahu who do apply are, rightly in my view, beaten out of the jobs by more able candidates.
It may sound harsh, but they are in fact lucky as they are spared the inevitable critique. In the past many Ngai Tahu folk have been appointed to jobs because there is always a desire to appoint our own. They have left broken and disappointed because much of the time the jobs were beyond them and thus they were set up to fail. Sometime potentially good Ngai Tahu employees only needed a good manager to suceed beyond all our dreams and yet the appointment of a sub-standard Ngai Tahu manager resulted in more than one employment related failure.
To Evelyn, if you want to know what your sister is paid you should address that question to her. And if you then want to compare the contribution and commitment to the tribe over time between her and Nuk and the contractors rates each is/was paid then be my guess.
This example of tearing one's own apart based on personal rather than professional assessment could not demonstrate more clearly the issues we all face. Evelyn used her name, but avoided naming the target of her spiteful query.
This is why Anon folk feel safe to speak out because they are Anon. It protects them from direct retribution by the many of our own who are just like Evelyn.
Key difference between most employees and contractors we Anons ask questions about, they put their names forward for to be our Representatives and/or they were part of a group of people who were caught out with an orchestrated strategy to undermine the tribal structure and Mark, Anake and other employees and contractors work to rectify some of the issues that have existed for ever.
I also note the "collective" went to exraordinary lengths to do this in secret (anonymously even) and there is evidence they continue to do so as I type - although the link between Wally and Nuk and how Wally was appointed is pretty obvious. It is hardly surprising the type of post Evelyn refers to has re-surfaced. Those folks were acting in their own interests then and they are again. They want revenge and they don't care for us Anons or anyone else.
We are Ngai Tahu - we don't forget and when this era of Ngai Tahu history is written by someone other than Jon Stokes they will not be heros to us.
signed "another Anon"
Dear another anon..
Your words are beautiful, truth from the heart.
I believe their are thousands of us Ngai Tahu anons who feel the same way.
As with many of you, my heart is saddened by the fact I don't feel welcomed on my own marae.
As the years go by, the distance gets further.
I can be rest assured that my ancestors are with me everyday, I still am proud of who I am and to be Ngai Tahu. I will continue to live by my ancestors standards, those of mana and truth.
Maybe all us anons should start our own marae so we have a place to speak. It would be one of the biggest maraes in the south island as their are so many who have been ousted from their own.
It is very sad at this point of time, the history which is being made.
PS Dear Evelyn,
I cannot stand being a anon, retribution comes at a high cost.
It has to be this way..for the time being.
The truth may take years to surface.. but it always comes out.
I am anon 13 and others.
You said I should have a nickname..
So I've decided to be...
Truth - Light - Love is me.
Yet another anonymous posted this:
To Evelyn, if you want to know what your sister is paid you should address that question to her. And if you then want to compare the contribution and commitment to the tribe over time between her and Nuk and the contractors rates each is/was paid then be my guess.
This example of tearing one's own apart based on personal rather than professional assessment could not demonstrate more clearly the issues we all face. Evelyn used her name, but avoided naming the target of her spiteful query.
While you obviously know me well enough to know who my sister is, you do not know me at all.
I won't spend any time wondering who you are or what your motives might be to cast such unfounded aspersions. You may continue to cower behind your anonymity while I will continue to be upfront in my postings.
I actually do not want to know what any contractor is being paid, I just queried why the obsession with NTHC contractors while ignoring that OTRONT employed them too.
kia ora koutou
Good discussion but there is no need to get personal. Evelyn uses her own name and that should be respected. I thank you for your contribution Evelyn as i thank all who make the effort to say their piece. If an anon wants to make a personal statement against Evelyn or her whanau then use your name or don't make the accusation. Use your name or don't say it.
In general I prefer people to use a 'handle' to keep track of who is saying what, but I've become a bit attached to the numerous anons - it adds a certain chaos to everything. A way to track anon comments is to use the time of the comment thus - to anon 9.34am thanks or @ anon 4.22pm Good point.
This is just the very beginning of these types of korero we are all still learning so we need to cut everyone some slack. We are discussing deep and meaningful topics and everyone in this iwi has been damaged and hurt and we need to keep being aware of that.
Kia kaha
Nicely put Marty...
Truth - light - love
(What we all need more of)
Kia ora Evelyn
You are right - I barely know you as compared to others your sojourn with our iwi is of short duratiion.
You say we as Anons should identify ourselves - and for a moment appear to sympathise with us. But you did ask about the Ngai Tahu contractors employed by the CEO and there is only one - so if you genuinely did not know who you had picked out then perhaps it is not Anon III that lacks knowledge of what is going on at HQ.
I have great respect for Kelly - age brings its benefits... I know Kelly worked just as hard for his Ngai Tahu and local community for decades before he became a Rep. If remumeration was tied to community work by Reps then we can cut it to those who don't do any, come under-prepared for meetings - vote no in a block for some spurious point of principle and generally don't know the difference between governance and management.
I think funding for Reps and all things that PR are required to do should be "bulk funding" - then their community can assess the value of the Reps on the table and they can't just set their own fees.
It is a tired old argument that we are paying non-Ngai Tahu more than we pay Ngai Tahu. We should pay for ability to contribute to the task that is set. Quite frankly none of our boards so far no matter how consituted have performed up to scratch on any type of bench mark measure considering the business advntages they have.
I am definately not cowering behind Anon - if you made a genuine mistake then I withdraw the comments about your sister. I note you don't comment on the "cowering collective" and their nefarious activities.
For my part, I am being prudent as the other Anons are and as you have just experienced, being named and making a mistake can bring a reaction that clearly borders on personal attack. Not my intention, I thought you knew the facts, that led me to make the point that using your name and the pointing out the only person that you could be referring to seemed to be the height of hypocracy.
another (and staying) Anon
PS - thanks Marty - but know that is the context of those remarks.
Thanks Marty for your comments. I truly value the fact that you encourage debate in your blog and I do try to be well-mannered in my posts and responses. Should I fail to show respect to others, please feel free to pull me up.
Anonymous @ 1.32
You are right - I barely know you as compared to others your sojourn with our iwi is of short duratiion.
My time with 'our iwi' is 59 years 1 month and 3 days but in the sense of rūnanga / marae involvement, a little more than 20 years. Less than some, more than many.
As for my sister being OTRONT's only contractor, that may well be so in December 2009 but most certainly was not so at the time of the original post by Marty Mars and the brouhaha of February to April. I know that there have been others in OTRONT because at least one person in such a position told me so personally. I am unsure of that person's current status but that is irrelevant. I don't want to know what any contractor is being paid. I just want this nonsense about people contracting to NTHC as if it doesn't happen in OTRONT to be addressed honestly. Both arms of the iwi do it - finito.
Kelly's committment to Ngāi Tahu, his mahi, his mana and his mohiotanga is something I needn't expand on but the same people who have made personal attacks on Wally Stone, Tutehounuku Korako et al also questioned Kelly's integrity. I had no respect for those people during those last moths, weeks and days of Kelly's life and I have none for them now.
Nevertheless, my opinions and voice are my own. As I have said before, I stand to be corrected on fact but I am allowed to have a differing opinion and to express it. In this case, I do not believe I am factually incorrect.
"We are Ngai Tahu - we don't forget and when this era of Ngai Tahu history is written by someone other than Jon Stokes they will not be heros to us.
signed "another Anon"
I refuse to write on Roarprawn's site and come here because I believe you are safe Marty.
I haven't gone trawling back to find this thread but simply saved it in my favourites because I think there is some good korero. Marty perhaps you could write a book to capture the essence of the time from bloggers whom had no other outlet.
I have just read Bustedblonde's advocating for Tahu's new website. There is no getting away from the fact that she is a very integral part of Tahu & Co's network.
The words I have copied from one of comments in this thread are true. What is left of our business if Tahu's immaturity, status grabbing thinking can put all of our Discussion, Information and Decision documents on the web for the world to see. Will this lot stop at nothing?
Speaking of transparency we (Ngai Tahu) can access these very documents through our papatipu runanga there is no need to publish them. This is just another example and there will be more to come.
Things may well be quiet on the top of the water but the webbed feet are paddling furiously underneath and it's still all about the power.
Quentin Hix may well be the wild card.
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