Monday, May 20, 2013

I don't tolerate race baiters

Sometimes an internet exchange can reveal the machinations of deeper issues and show why some issues are difficult to resolve. The example I will detail below (I can't include everything so I suggest you read the threads on the links if you wish to see the full context) gives us an insight into how race baiters introduce their memes into society and the tactics they use to shift the debate when cornered, and how ultimately it is always about them and their disguised views of indigenous people. This is just one example of one person but I think it tells the story. 

It started (although that is not quite correct as I’ll show at the end) with this posting on The Standard by a commenter vto (who you may remember from this post of mine).
A curious thing was heard on te wireless Sunday pm which related to an interest in maoridom and its relations with others that I have. The debate at Vic University about the consttitution etc and in particular whether a republic should be chosen in replacement of the monarchy had four people, I imagine of high calibre in these matters, debating this. One was a professor, another another academic, another a law firm partner and another a can’t remember.
The host, a Simon Price i think, asked a question around how the Treaty fits within such a particular question. Every single one of the guests refused to comment. The audience uttered a nervous giggle.
I found this very telling. Whenever issues are raised around here of this world and its issues the accusation of being racist comes out pretty damn quick. Like a knee-jerk reaction. It is as if we are not permitted to question things in this arena, that it is taboo, that certain people are not qualified or of the correct race or ‘status’ to raise issues that are of concern to them. This claim is made by many people in New Zealand (that they are accused of being racist for simply talking race).
This radio debate seemed to pretty strongly confirm this bias in our society. Nobody would dare utter their view. Every single one of the four people were too scared. It was abundantly clear. It was further reinforced by the nervous laughter in the crowd. They risked being labelled for expressing their view.
New Zealand in this regard is immature and needs to grow up.
As you can imagine this raised some eyebrows because the constitutional debate is designed to ask those questions and debate them – why was this not done, why did they giggle and not answer the question.

Weka, another commenter on The Standard did some digging and she found the actual question and it was asked by known racist john ansell – this was the actual question
Given that polls tell us that 80% of New Zealanders are distressed at seeing their country being slowly surrendered to the part descendants of the minority of Maori who breached the Treaty by rebelling against the Crown in the 1860s, could we use a republican referendum process to entrench racial equality?
Oh dear that question is quite leading isn’t it and it is totally understandable why the panelists wouldn’t answer a racist and derogatory question like that – what do you think vto said about that?
Good on ya. Minor mistake but make no difference.
Yep – the fact that a loaded question raised by a known race hater makes no difference to vto because, as he says,
I was not so much interested in the actual question, more in the interaction of peoples and the allowing of the question followed by the refusal to answer and the wider implications surrounding that.
Now you may want to reread the original post by vto to check the accuracy of that statement because it just is not true, remember vto said in that original post that
It is as if we are not permitted to question things in this arena, that it is taboo, that certain people are not qualified or of the correct race or ‘status’ to raise issues that are of concern to them…  Nobody would dare utter their view. Every single one of the four people were too scared. It was abundantly clear. It was further reinforced by the nervous laughter in the crowd. They risked being labelled for expressing their view.
So this is how they do it – that is a classic example of how memes get put into the public consciousness and disseminated – I’ll break it down

First you make a statement that pushes a certain line – in this case vto said the question about the Treaty wasn’t debated and this showed that people are scared to debate the issue, even though the panel was made up of respected and knowledgeable people.

Second when shown that the question was biased and from a known race hater and that is why it wasn’t answered, you dismiss that as irrelevant and change tack and say that the questioner and question were not the real issue instead there were ‘wider implications’ in their non-answering.

And third you disregard the facts to continue to push the meme that you want to get out there by adjusting your wording slightly whist keeping your original position intact – everything supports your position even if it is made up and shown to be a lie as vto says,
What I heard was the question. The particular person of the question was immaterial to the question, as I was whistling while I worked and missed it. But mine ears perked at it from thence forth listening more closely. The panelists all declined to answer. That was very odd, given the situation, hence my post.
The mistake aorund the questionnaire is immaterial to the point raised. Once you glean out the flotsam and jetsam.
This approach is pretty common especially with those who have extreme views. Other commenters notice of course such as weka again
Your whole argument was that a good question was asked, and that it was strange that the panelists all refused to answer, and your conclusion was that they were afraid to. You were wrong vto, just admit it and then we can move on to more productive discussion.
You want to draw the conclusion that they didn’t want to answer because of fear of talking about racism, but by your own admission you didn’t listen to the thing properly and missed the context and the person asking the question (and don’t pretend now that the identity of the person answering doesn’t matter). There were in fact some other references in the talk to Maori and the implications of constitutional change (not alot but they were there), which belies the idea that people were avoiding talking about race.
That logic doesn’t get through to types such as vto because he is slippery and has a meme to push come hell or high water.

I asked for a list of what issues he wanted to discuss around the Treaty but vto refused to put a list up, so I put a list up for him. This list was composed honestly in an attempt to cut through the lies and disinformation and get to something that could be debated
1 the Treaty is historical and a new one needs to be drafted to take into consideration the multicultural aspect of NZ society.
2 too much emphasis (money) is on tangata whenua and that they have received enough emphasis (money)
3 Māori were the first here and that could be called indigenous but it is irrelevant in today’s world
4 Māori are inherently violent and warlike
5 No one represents the ‘white man’ who gets abuse and derision when they say something that others perceive as racist
6 Non-Māori who talk about race get accused of being racist
7 Māori are racist to ‘white people’
8 Celts were here before Māori and taught them everything of what they know until Māori killed them all
9 The chinese bought slave-wives here to breed with Māori
10 Barry Brailsford doesn’t talk shit
That list of beliefs is common amongst race baiters and incorporates quite a few memes that they wish to push in this country. Vto considered my list to be a personal attack and changed tack to rally against this attack instead of either answering the points I raised or putting his own list up. This is another tactic of those wishing to spread malicious memes around Māori – it is all about them, it is always about them – they have no empathy or sensitivity to oppressed people – they don’t care about them at all, all they care about is themselves and it is beyond selfish.

So now the debate (if it can be called that) has shifted to the unfairness of the list instead of the unfairness of the memes contained on the list which marginalise and degrade Māori. The debate has shifted from the original post of vto which expressed surprise that the issues around the Treaty weren’t debated on RadioNZ, through the misrepresentation of the loaded question from a known racist to
Making it personal again i see. And plain stupid. You can’t help yourself can you.
Don’t bother engaging arsehole. Go stick your head back in the sand.
That sort of abuse is common on blogs and it can get even worse as vto showed when he went down the following lines - I've just put the abuse in
Go fuck yourself… Answer the issue cunt… To date you have had no answer to this issue cunt… Cunt… answer the issue cunt… the dumb cunt has no answer to the issue, just personal… Answer the fucking issue cunt…
Yes vto has issues with women, he also doesn’t like gay marriage and thinks it’s okay to call the gay Queens Counsel a “queer cunt” and so much more. Why bother engaging with this lowlife you may ask – everytime he leaves a comment potentially some person could read it and actually believe that what he is saying has merit. Some people will grab the meme that he is trying to push and use it to denigrate Māori further – that is how race baiters work. If no one opposes them they take that as agreement with their vile views.

Just on the abuse vto shunted at me – this was my response
on another point your excessive use of the word cunt – it reminds me that there are no demeaning terms for ‘woman’ in the Māori language, and that the first human was a woman – Hine-ahu-one, and that as all come from women at birth, at death the same occurs through Hine-nui-te-pō, and that Papa-tū-ā-nuku is our earth mother and sustainer of life and that women are mediators of tapu. Thanks for reminding me of these things vto even though you were trying to insult.
What was the question that he was upset that I didn’t answer? It was another meme designed to degrade Māori and the tiny gains we are making towards equality and he wasn’t even focused on the correct target of central and local government, no it is much easier for vto and his type to attack Māori – usually few argue. And yes, sure I bait him a bit because I believe in giving people plenty of rope and one of the reasons I started blogging was to counter the views of people like him, in fact I remember a post from 2009 from him that actually inspired me to start
Or a bit like the smaller step-brother, the maori party..
“Our new bro likes to get in your face he has no work but comes home pissed but only for some eggs he ignores the bitch, yells at the other bitch and kicks the kids on the way back to the pub to meet his mates still more bevvies and some P most nights he gets to ogle/grope the fat slag behind the bar and then smashes some innocent person walking home, gets picked up by the pigs and ends up with his mates in the klink no gropes of his missus now so has to play with himself, which comes naturally to him being a labour voter”
The vto’s are everywhere spreading their memes like a disease – I am not interested in tolerating them.

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